DaiTengu wrote to jimmylogan <=-
Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: jimmylogan to DaiTengu on Tue May 27 2025 08:29 am
He's had thousands of years. God is either incompetent (he's been
unable to stop evil), or malevolent (unwilling to stop evil).
Where would you suggest He start? With you? Or with me? Or with what YOU call evil?
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people on the planet could
identify blatant evil if it was presented to them, no matter what their religion is.
most religions have something similar to christianity's "golden rule".
the whole "do unto others as you would have them to do to you" (Luke
6:31) has existed longer than any of the abrahamic faiths.
It also fascinates me how so many so-called devout christians tend to ignore this rule.
When people realize that EVERYONE is basically evil, then asking God to stop it means to ask God to wipe out the human race. I don't think anyone really wants that...
meh. I've heard worse ideas.
Boraxman wrote to jimmylogan <=-
Foreknowledge does mean that your choice is set, before it is made,
before it is considered. If I know that you are going to eat Corn
Flakes for breakfast on the 30th of January, 2027, then it removes the possibility of you making any decision which does not result in you
eating those Corn Flakes. Foreknowledge of every event, removes every possibility. There is only one possibility, the future that is known.
You said: "Foreknowledge removes all other possibilities." But I
see it the other way around. You only know I'll eat Corn Flakes
because I chose to. If I suddenly decide on Raisin Bran instead,
then your foreknowledge would reflect that. Your knowing is a
result of my choice - not the cause of it.
If I know you will have cornflakes, assuming I do have foreknowledge,
then you WONT change your mind. Gods foreknowledge cannot be flawed.
Your sudden decisions can't happen. Either my foreknowledge is
imperfect, and subject to change, or you can't decide anything other
than what matches my foreknowledge.
That's the key for me. God's foreknowledge doesn't erase our
free will - it just means He already sees the outcome. There's
still a genuine decision being made, from our point of view
inside time.
So when you ask: "If there's only one path, who set it?" I'd say:
no one sets it in the sense of forcing it. It's just that God,
being outside of time, already sees the whole path we'll choose.
You and I don't have this perspective. We live moment by moment.
We don't even know what we'll decide tomorrow (or if we'll even
be here). But just because God knows our future decisions
doesn't mean He causes them.
I sort of agree. The decision is still from within us, it is,
technically us. This is why I think the claim we have no free will
doesn't quite hold. BUT I also view us having determistic decisions
(ie, our decisions are already determined by mechanics from the very start) compatible with the idea that we do
make decisions.
I understand your explanation, but I consider it immoral. Much in the same way I understant the argument for eternal damnation in hell, but consider it immoral
and beastly. If God is the only one who can meaningfully implement any change, but still burns us for eternity, then he is a monster. But as
I think its just a creation of tribal desert Jews, to me, the only
thing this reveals is the poor
morality of some Christians.
jimmylogan wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <68411BCA.10066.dove_dove-rel@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <68364A96.8172.dove-rel@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Boraxman wrote to jimmylogan <=-
My point is the foreknowledge is knowing what I will choose, but
not the CAUSE of my choice. It's hard to put into words or even
thoughts something that is beyond human comprehension.
That's the key for me. God's foreknowledge doesn't erase our
free will - it just means He already sees the outcome. There's
still a genuine decision being made, from our point of view
inside time.
So when you ask: "If there's only one path, who set it?" I'd say:
no one sets it in the sense of forcing it. It's just that God,
being outside of time, already sees the whole path we'll choose.
You and I don't have this perspective. We live moment by moment.
We don't even know what we'll decide tomorrow (or if we'll even
be here). But just because God knows our future decisions
doesn't mean He causes them.
I sort of agree. The decision is still from within us, it is,
technically us. This is why I think the claim we have no free will
doesn't quite hold. BUT I also view us having determistic decisions
(ie, our decisions are already determined by mechanics from the very start) compatible with the idea that we do
make decisions.
I see what you mean, and we may be saying the same thing. :-) Again,
it's a hard concept to put into words.
Have you considered that hell is a choice? If someone says, "I don't
want to have anything to do with a God that would do this" is
basically getting their wish?
Or to put it another way, God loves you enough to allow you to
decide to follow Him or not - He doesn't force it either one
way or another.
We all sin, and evil has to be judged for there to be justice.
Jesus took the punishment for us, but the punishment was still
taken.
No human being deserves to burn for one day, let alone eternity
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people on the planet could identify
blatant evil if it was presented to them, no matter what their religion
is.
Can you give me an example of blatant evil?
When people realize that EVERYONE is basically evil, then asking God to
stop it means to ask God to wipe out the human race. I don't think anyone
really wants that...
meh. I've heard worse ideas.
Would you volunteer yourself and those you love for that?
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