• Re: Angels and demons

    From jimmylogan@VERT/DIGDIST to DaiTengu on Wed Jun 4 21:23:38 2025
    DaiTengu wrote to jimmylogan <=-

    Re: Re: Angels and demons
    By: jimmylogan to DaiTengu on Tue May 27 2025 08:29 am

    He's had thousands of years. God is either incompetent (he's been
    unable to stop evil), or malevolent (unwilling to stop evil).

    Where would you suggest He start? With you? Or with me? Or with what YOU call evil?

    I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people on the planet could
    identify blatant evil if it was presented to them, no matter what their religion is.

    Can you give me an example of blatant evil?

    most religions have something similar to christianity's "golden rule".
    the whole "do unto others as you would have them to do to you" (Luke
    6:31) has existed longer than any of the abrahamic faiths.

    It also fascinates me how so many so-called devout christians tend to ignore this rule.

    Yes, it is very sad. :-( The main problem with people that identify
    as Christian is they aren't really serious about their commitment
    to God/Jesus.

    When people realize that EVERYONE is basically evil, then asking God to stop it means to ask God to wipe out the human race. I don't think anyone really wants that...

    meh. I've heard worse ideas.

    Would you volunteer yourself and those you love for that?




    ... This line is intentionally NOT blank.
    --- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From jimmylogan@VERT/DIGDIST to Boraxman on Wed Jun 4 21:23:38 2025
    Boraxman wrote to jimmylogan <=-

    Foreknowledge does mean that your choice is set, before it is made,
    before it is considered. If I know that you are going to eat Corn
    Flakes for breakfast on the 30th of January, 2027, then it removes the possibility of you making any decision which does not result in you
    eating those Corn Flakes. Foreknowledge of every event, removes every possibility. There is only one possibility, the future that is known.

    You said: "Foreknowledge removes all other possibilities." But I
    see it the other way around. You only know I'll eat Corn Flakes
    because I chose to. If I suddenly decide on Raisin Bran instead,
    then your foreknowledge would reflect that. Your knowing is a
    result of my choice - not the cause of it.

    If I know you will have cornflakes, assuming I do have foreknowledge,
    then you WONT change your mind. Gods foreknowledge cannot be flawed.
    Your sudden decisions can't happen. Either my foreknowledge is
    imperfect, and subject to change, or you can't decide anything other
    than what matches my foreknowledge.

    My point is the foreknowledge is knowing what I will choose, but
    not the CAUSE of my choice. It's hard to put into words or even
    thoughts something that is beyond human comprehension.

    That's the key for me. God's foreknowledge doesn't erase our
    free will - it just means He already sees the outcome. There's
    still a genuine decision being made, from our point of view
    inside time.

    So when you ask: "If there's only one path, who set it?" I'd say:
    no one sets it in the sense of forcing it. It's just that God,
    being outside of time, already sees the whole path we'll choose.

    You and I don't have this perspective. We live moment by moment.
    We don't even know what we'll decide tomorrow (or if we'll even
    be here). But just because God knows our future decisions
    doesn't mean He causes them.

    I sort of agree. The decision is still from within us, it is,
    technically us. This is why I think the claim we have no free will
    doesn't quite hold. BUT I also view us having determistic decisions
    (ie, our decisions are already determined by mechanics from the very start) compatible with the idea that we do
    make decisions.

    I see what you mean, and we may be saying the same thing. :-) Again,
    it's a hard concept to put into words.

    I understand your explanation, but I consider it immoral. Much in the same way I understant the argument for eternal damnation in hell, but consider it immoral
    and beastly. If God is the only one who can meaningfully implement any change, but still burns us for eternity, then he is a monster. But as
    I think its just a creation of tribal desert Jews, to me, the only
    thing this reveals is the poor
    morality of some Christians.

    Have you considered that hell is a choice? If someone says, "I don't
    want to have anything to do with a God that would do this" is
    basically getting their wish?

    Or to put it another way, God loves you enough to allow you to
    decide to follow Him or not - He doesn't force it either one
    way or another.

    We all sin, and evil has to be judged for there to be justice.
    Jesus took the punishment for us, but the punishment was still
    taken.


    ... Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
    --- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to jimmylogan on Thu Jun 5 19:33:00 2025
    jimmylogan wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <68411BCA.10066.dove_dove-rel@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <68364A96.8172.dove-rel@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to jimmylogan <=-

    My point is the foreknowledge is knowing what I will choose, but
    not the CAUSE of my choice. It's hard to put into words or even
    thoughts something that is beyond human comprehension.

    One can see the outcome, but not the will behind it.

    That's the key for me. God's foreknowledge doesn't erase our
    free will - it just means He already sees the outcome. There's
    still a genuine decision being made, from our point of view
    inside time.

    So when you ask: "If there's only one path, who set it?" I'd say:
    no one sets it in the sense of forcing it. It's just that God,
    being outside of time, already sees the whole path we'll choose.

    You and I don't have this perspective. We live moment by moment.
    We don't even know what we'll decide tomorrow (or if we'll even
    be here). But just because God knows our future decisions
    doesn't mean He causes them.

    I sort of agree. The decision is still from within us, it is,
    technically us. This is why I think the claim we have no free will
    doesn't quite hold. BUT I also view us having determistic decisions
    (ie, our decisions are already determined by mechanics from the very start) compatible with the idea that we do
    make decisions.

    I see what you mean, and we may be saying the same thing. :-) Again,
    it's a hard concept to put into words.


    I think we are saying the same thing, that the decision does come from
    within us, so it is ours, and the outcome could, at least in theory,
    be known ahead of time.


    Have you considered that hell is a choice? If someone says, "I don't
    want to have anything to do with a God that would do this" is
    basically getting their wish?

    Or to put it another way, God loves you enough to allow you to
    decide to follow Him or not - He doesn't force it either one
    way or another.

    We all sin, and evil has to be judged for there to be justice.
    Jesus took the punishment for us, but the punishment was still
    taken.

    In your bar-fight analogy, our lack of knowledge blinds us, we cannot
    know for certain the outcomes of our actions. To someone that can
    see, the outcome is certain. The moral implications for those who
    see, differ from those who can't.

    However, the issue I think isn't whether we agree on what is
    happening, but whether we consider it moral or not. To me, it is not
    just for a being which DOES have foreknowledge, to judge those that
    don't have foreknowledge for their mistakes.

    As an agnostic, to me, this isn't anything to do with God, but does
    reveal the flawed, and deeply troubling ethics of the culture which
    created this idea. God in this case is never at fault. No matter how
    hidden He is, no matter how much reason and rationality argues against
    His existence, God presumes no responsibility whatsover for His
    rejection. Its the fault of Man. This is a kind of thinking which is
    still found in that culture today. It is a perverted morality. Those
    who claim "meekness" are always the worst.

    No human being deserves to burn for one day, let alone eternity, for
    the "sin" of using the mind that God gave them to come to an
    understandable conclusion. The fact that people think this is just,
    is an indication on how the morally righteous can easily be pulled
    into believing and doing terrible things.


    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Jcurtis@VERT to BORAXMAN on Thu Jun 5 08:29:59 2025
    No human being deserves to burn for one day, let alone eternity

    That's church dogma. Bible Hellfire symbolizes permanent destruction,
    not endless torment and suffering. It means you're gone forever and not
    coming back.

    Why should atheists object to that. It's what they believe.

    * SLMR 2.1a *

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to jimmylogan on Tue Jul 15 18:20:30 2025
    Re: Re: Angels and demons
    By: jimmylogan to DaiTengu on Wed Jun 04 2025 09:23 pm

    I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people on the planet could identify
    blatant evil if it was presented to them, no matter what their religion
    is.

    Can you give me an example of blatant evil?

    Sexual abuse. Murder. Child abuse.

    There's 3. (you can find examples of this in The Bible)

    When people realize that EVERYONE is basically evil, then asking God to
    stop it means to ask God to wipe out the human race. I don't think anyone
    really wants that...

    meh. I've heard worse ideas.

    Would you volunteer yourself and those you love for that?

    I don't think you get to volunteer for that.

    ...Save fuel. Get cremated with a friend.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com